Also, you dont want the sheep to get uppity. Youll see they have no standards regarding truth, salt of light. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. It was like my eyes were open. He is listening for your litl sweet voice! Lydia wrote: And shame on these preachers at these churches giving MD a platform to relaunch his church-related career. Silly me! He can be forgiven. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, they have something to hide. Yep. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. Its more the non-complementarian position to argue that women should be allowed to preach/lead based on gifting and that sounds like the argument Driscoll is raising in the quotes by him I placed in this post. Was Pastor Lindells statement just a slip or an attempt to rewrite history? since we are all clergy??? I will post about this. I wouldnt want to walk in his shoes and succumb to the large amount of pride he exhibits, what an empty way to live. How can a reasonable person look past that? mark is finally preaching more accurately who Jesus is and the fact that salvation is found in Jesus but then he goes off into marks interpretation of the bible as usual. Youre not trying hard enough! He dropped the moral bar for both pulpit and pew that has far reaching consequences on the way we do church. But over time became desensitized and swept up in group-think so as to eventually accept it as acceptable in the 21st century. The term was invented by Tom Wolfe back in the 70s to describe the superficial gliteratti associating with revolutionary thugs as a way to prove their bonafides. i have very little church experience so i dont think i am qualified to even speak to these things though. Did nefarious conspirators plagiarize his books, hire Result Source and use his evil twin again to go with his wife to meet with his agents to put that $210,000 manipulation in place, all behind the real MDs back? Whats the worst import/export that youve seen? My point with Che is to draw a parallel. News flash: Jesus is the hero of scripture. Pouring? The mighty Kari Jobe is featured in some of the faking it videos they play in the classes. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. No coffee bar, etc. Excellent comment! In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. Are you not voting for the candidates and issues Gateway told you to? You are so spot on. as to revenue streams, Jesus paid His taxes with money a fish popped up with. it sounds like you have a story of sorts. I think what became public is enough to realize they are not safe, not mature but toxic and have been all along. Imagine that. A friend of the family stated the same. Applying this mode to spiritual abuse has gotten me thinking..and I wonder if in the future Mark will only hang around people/churches that are willing to stay on this Drama Triangle. The point of closed systems is to keep them closed. Barnabus is the hero of this story that gets little press. Who cares about that pesky truth so long as there are clean bathrooms, great hot coffee and rockin worship? © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. The bible sayz dat soon the darkness is coming when no one will be listening. I told him that. Driscoll, IMHO, is completely unsuited for any position of authority. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? what would you say and do (if they stoned you) angry mob is murdering him openly publicly and shamefully. They are relinquishing 10-20% of their gross income. Title And of course JLindell can know that MD has NOT repented and sought reconciliation with those he threatened with breaking their nose, and then expelled and shunned. Im guessing Driscolls trying to resurrect his career by going into Charismatic type denominations or churches. I find that when the Lord is using my mouth it is never vulgar or rude. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. Pastor John Lindell mentioned that Mark and Grace founded Mars Hill Church eighteen years ago. All rights reserved. They knew exactly what they were buying. Like God might show up. :o) I would view it like this: If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are worth investigating with openess and transparancy. An awful lot of people are having to do the exact same thing. Until Mark repents of his Peasant Princess series along with its cartoon, and his Esther series, and his man stay-at-home man fail rants, the only sermon I will listen to of his and his supporters is John 3:16. Hmmm, trust the Spirit, and let them be killed like Ananias and Sapphira? I completely understand why you are so skeptical. Wouldnt you encourage him to find another vocation? He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. The word "love" appears, Lindell said, because it would be unloving not to tell someone that when salvation is at stake. Bob, I loved your comment. I dont equate it with forgiveness at all. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. John Lindell has spoken. There is no reason why he should be a pastor again. In February of 2007, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon that included raising funds for Agathos. CCHD has been in contact with the City of Ozark, where the venue is located and where there is a current masking ordinance in place. I wonder how much of this concern over gay rights is to deflect people from considering their own deficiencies. Bob, I loved your comment. He made a lucrative living and lived what I would call a lavish lifestyle (higher standard of living than every single person in my church, for example), and he did it all with Jesus. Come on Lindell, Morris, Kellogg and Johnston. Why dont Driscoll and the boyz just get it over with and rename their religion Paulianity? However, some of his employees and family were taken in by SBTS and seem to be doing ok. IMO, the church as a whole can help to regulate these things by exposing them and explaining how they do not reflect Christ at all. The worship leaders laugh about it. I sometimes think the man has no friends, but if he does, they should help him now. The Lord had more to say about gall through His servant Jeremiah: Jeremiah 23:13-17 There are plenty of people within the Christian faith that have their own issues with mega churches but people outside of it especially do. Now the shock will be realizing how far theyve strayed from those virtues. I had never heard someone talk like that. . I dont see him pastoring a church and I am not even sure his legal problems from the last one are over. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. This is not a measure of faith. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious. And he was not originally trusted or met with open arms by the Jesus believers of the day. But forgiveness doesnt mean the church should open itself to his abuse again no need to return him to the pulpit since he wasnt a genuine minister to begin with; there was no evidence of the call of God on his life given his dismal run as a pastor. God knows that we dont need that sort of ministry again.. "It is possible for someone who has practiced a life of adultery to stop," he said in the sermon. He was not participating in stonings. As I said, I am not a fan, but I can see the appeal of *his image,* from way back in the late 60s when posters of him 1st started appearing in college dorms. https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-establishing-and-building-trust/. I probably wont be won over to the side of communism. It was so heretical that even the MH staff saw issues and took it down. Im not kidding. Connect With Us! (Jesus is a pastor?) notable pastors have been pouring into his life. i have seen so much of what you wrote about to know that it is true, a big orchestrated show to fleece sheep and get fame. Not much time has passed since he stepped down. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. When you add atmosphere teams to further manipulate peoples worship experience that is too much. @ Bob M: James River Church is a multi-site church that exists to impact the lives of people through relevant teaching,. Mark flatly denied it, but I believe we may be seeing a pattern here. Maybe Driscoll can do commercials like John McEnroe, i am against that sort of ministry, that sort of authority over people, that sort of famousness, that sort of using the gospel of Jesus to make money and become well known in christan circles, that sort of using Jesus name for any personal gain, that sort of i have special insight from God and heres how much you have to pay for it in my new book, that sort of quit saying i have to be asking to be forgiven if i hurt people that sort of we are all brethren but i am alpha brethren i dont hold unforgiveness toward mark driscoll but i am not for anyone anywhere doing that sort of ministry. So glad for the folks that started the petition to dis-invite Driscoll, which I signed as well as for those in Australia who protested his abusive, un-Christian behavior toward others, including women. no., to forgive them prepares you to see jesus. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. Lindell hit two main points: the Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality as sin and the ordinance is an infringement on the religious rights of Christians who believe so. The program includes signing over any welfare benefits to the Ministry, with the program alleged to contain little actual psychological assistance, and mostly prayer and expelling demons. I really appreciate your insights Lydia. Youll notice the Pentecostals elevating him are in their 50s and 60s. in the first years of the organinazation they didnt do anything without consensus because they believed that if they were a group of believers the Lord would make them of the same agreement on specific issues and if they didnt reach agreement there was a reason that needed to be looked at. Unless he completely revamps his life and his teachings, hes going to leave damaged lives in his wake. If not, why not? Do I hope they change? He was a mass murdering thug. Any of all of that may be true. Hosting a giant event without distancing or masking is irresponsible and insulting to the people on the front lines of this crisis, most especially the health care workers who are overwhelmed. Hi Nancy, I am a graduate from Sydney and I just want to say thank you so very much for making Mercy a possibility for girls like myself to be able to go to here in Australia, it has truly saved my life and given me a future. Acts 6:15, they were enraged. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. Bingo. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. He was the vulgar shock jock of American Christianity. like i said it went away from that and i didnt look into why. They really believe that God has anointed the leaders to lead them. Here are just some of the phrases he uses as he shares the story. He did it from one of the most powerful places in Southwest Missouri the pulpit of James River Church, where he leads an Assemblies of God congregation that often tops 9,000 worshipers on. they get tired of hearing his kind words they shove it into his mouth. When he agreed to accept an $850,000 annual pay package while other staff were being laid off due to declining offerings, was he in a fugue state, incapable of understanding what was going on? probably just my opinion, and I overgeneralized. starting to act animalistic the resistance is increasing, how will stephen respond?. http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, A few items: A preacher is not to be- I also find him vulgar and misogynistic, so I dont see him as ever having been qualified to start with. Not that I think he failed to tell the truth. No ownership and everyone else is to blame. But guess what else happened? he smiles and there is love in his heart. Thanks for your informative comment. There is no glorifying God in any of that. Really? It genuinely didnt occur to me that he was just a good, decent man who might care about Gods children regardless of their zip code. He was the vulgar shock jock of American Christianity. In 2010, Outreach magazine listed James River as one of the fastest-growing churches in America. I would think that rehabilitation for him would be finding a job where he was not the boss and not the teacher. In my opinion Gateway is a cult not a church so they lose their Winters Bone protection status. He needs to clean up the mess that he made. His style appealed to the carnal nature of 21st century Christians he gave them what they wanted and they loved it so. Driscoll was never really qualified to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the first place he proved that time and time again by his un-Christlike behavior in word and action. The carpet was worn. Mark Driscoll has shown that hes capable of inflicting a lot of damage on many people. And probably they wont. http://www.mercyministries.org/, though she scrubbed some posts referring to her involvement when it was hillsong ministries mercy ministries there are still a few unscrubs left here and there. The name Che is a nickname, short for pig (chancho), for a reason. I didnt feel pressured. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog. @ Nancy: Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyones eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. Gateway also directly lifted the slogan every number has a name, every name has a story.. spiel verbatim from Perry Nobles NewSpring to try to distract from the reality that every member is seen as a giving unit number (no attribution to Perry, of course). It is possible for somebody who has a cutting tongue and a big mouth to stop. So why would they view power and authority as central to the Gospel? BTW they didnt have a head worship pastor. I present to you James River church in Springfield Missouri this past weekend. After surrendering more than 10% of your gross income for years you are tens of thousands of dollars into them at that point and that can really bolster all the cognitive dissonance you feel and strangely work to prevent your leaving. If, as a teacher, you realise that you hate students, you must give up your job and find something else. This is not a measure of faith. Having heard MDs messages for several years now, I believe he is trying to lead people into thinking its about him. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. They are used to being believed no matter what they say. No, there is no reason to believe CJ committed actual crimes. There was another couple along with us who knew a bit more about him and we absolutely amazed that this man, who could have been an elder, could not see through the act which you described so perfectly. I do hope he finds wholeness. Considering the level of corruption I impute to mixing with Driscoll, Im not wondering much. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. It is a winner! A cynical, weary part of me says theyll never change. Im sure someone wittier than I can do something with his Training ourselves to sense right from wrong. I see inviting Driscoll anywhere in the same context as some dumb kid wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. Most of all we want people to know that God loves and cares for them, the church said. Che Guevera was a die hard Communist who actively conspired with the Soviet Union to turn America into a long nuclear winter landscape that would put Winterfell to shame. I followed up on the link and have been sharing this song with families and friends! mode. How can they do that? . sometimes i have hurt people because i have gotten caught up in the excitement of a new orginazation or enterprise but i have never been able to stay that way long, my conscience pricks me until i stop and go back and make things right with people i have hurt. mark chose to step down not mark was removed. I hope more will speak up in the future. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. It is ok to ask for openess and transparancy. But I did find this on the IRS website: A tax-exempt organization "may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.". But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. If you become used to a certain standard of living, that does not mean you are entitled to that standard of living. Is to be- Like I said, I dont want to get into an argument here. I do hope that nobody is still saying these same things before they clean up their own act. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. No body guards. When I read your comment, this suddenly popped into my head. What I do really pray for is that the followers start questioning and thinking about what they support and find freedom in their own seeking of Christ instead of following a guru and his interpretations. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. i hope people will go back and read the whole thing if they havent yet. . Pews are in the old megas. Hillsongsfounder, Brian Houston, released a statement saying he did not want the 30-minute interview with Driscoll to distract from the larger five-day conference. . I am also pretty sure the accounts of his instrumental role in bringing Russian nuclear-armed ballistic missiles to Cuba to be used against the US were not purely fabricated, so I did not believe I was disseminating false information at the time I wrote that. when mercy ministries was investigated at hillsong amazingly the leader Nancy Acorn opened up shop in the u.s. and has many supporters among the christian circuit "We cannot endorse a candidate and we cannot endorse a party," he said. I find it telling that it contains 41 mentions of "sin," "sinners" and "sinfulness.". I think many. they may think i just sit around judging peoples apologies or repentance. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. Southern Missouri . Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. Thanks for that recommendation. On the other hand though a lot of people obviously like the guy enormously and his business model for his church is pretty successful. But, as you said, there is no substitute for a work of the Holy Spirit. Nancy, i think theres a lot of truth to what you say, and its more than posdible that people he was addressing in his letters knew at least something about that. People shift roles all the time (Mark has obviously been a persecutor a lot!). He set himself up as King of Acts 29 and operated with no accountability at Mars Hill. kings sit. Members are guests? vengance is where you make someone pay. And he cant really do that if he keep holding on to the more sexist, frat boy type of Christianity that Neo Calvinists support that he was espousing at Mars Hill. Q. . God,I am running for your heart until my soul is on fire? Vulgarity and filth get fed to us little by little until we hardly notice weve ignored those first red flags and become part and parcel of the heresy. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. The resistance is to Jesus. I wish he would try to get a corporate communications job or something though. These churches are both responsible for vetting their speakers, and they utterly failed on this one. we will see jesus face to face I dont want you to take your slander etc with you. Who has wounded you? OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. Christian institutions are trying to express an organic Jesus in non-organic structures. (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. @ Gus: jesus example they put a robe on him a mockery of his kingship. Its meant only to address the deception of certain megas. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? The worst of all the bad these churches can do (apart from sexual assaults) is brainwashing the kids into their cult beliefs so that they will not accept the true Word of God at a later date. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. @ Lydia: He was a mass murdering thug. I knew I was being set up when I watched MDs embedded church video posted here at TWW. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. helpful or even hopeful in terms of my eternal afterlife. I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. Lindell needs to state, specifically, what has been written about Driscoll that is a lie, because he is in effect calling all the victims and the 40 pastors/elders who filed formal charges against MD liars. Based on my experience, this public story should be seen as somewhat inevitable in how they operate. He appealed that he had no say in the matter. Stephens, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to keep his position on the ordinance incomprehensible. And Lindell knows none of that is because of him. (figuratively)) Later he show us all how it was done. The lack of regard for the masking ordinance and therefore its fellow community members by this venue and its occupants is not condoned by the CCHD, the agency said. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. In 1969, he was transferred to a church in Fairmont, W.Va. How far can a pastor go in preaching the gospel when it comes to a political issue? So many use Ches image as some sort of inspirational symbol. He further states: A door was closed to who I was and a door was opened to who I became. I can't help but wonder whether Driscoll is talking about Paul or himself. I understand exactly how you feel if that helps. Pastors that dont understand the devestation they cause by playing God in peoples lives, especially women and childrens lives, have no business calling themselves christians and certainly shouldnt be in positions where people might think they are speaking for God Himself when they tell them how to live. sam wrote: But I am also free to point out his behavior looks sociopathic if one has spent enough time looking into sociopathic behaviors. So, where are the reasonable people? I dont think many realize that in order to have real repentance they would have to give all that up. Some guys I knew in Tucson called this shining the Stupid Ray on people.. Van, I agree with Deb. I know that tens of thousands left GW before I did and they walked away without the decency to help others. #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books, Theyre having new revelations from heaven haha i mean from the internet blogs that they cant escape. Those ones arent even on the path. These Pentecostals keep insisting that almost everything written on the internet about Mark Driscoll isnt even close to the truth. @ LT: Its much harder to leave that way. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility Thats certainly how Driscoll has handled things. First, he begins by praying that he wants to make this time just about God and His people; yet he appears to take the stories of Stephen and Paul and apply them to his own circumstance at least that's how it sounded to me. what they are. Youre not one of us. especially i want to comment Bills comment: A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. i have seen this with great fruit but sooner or later they seem to join a church and then get into the organized one leader concept of church, usually a small church and then i have seen the vision they had and the practice of each one seeking the Lord individually disapear and be replaced by how to organize and raise funds to do more in the name of the Lord. Unless of course, they give up the celebrity/money/position and go into obscurity getting real jobs. now i am going to see if i can stand to listen to the whole mark speaks video. Do your part with the people in your life, give to your church, beyond that have a global heart for widows, orphans, the poor and those in need, I am going to ask you to support some widows and orphans in Africa, We have an orphanage, we have a villagemembers of Mars Hill have actually moved there to take care of widows and orphans.. OZARK, Mo. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. . Would you hire back the embezzler to count your cash drawer after he served a short sentence because you forgave him? Those who challenged him were openly chastised, disgracefully removed from membership and/or shunned until the organization he created finally said enough is enough and sent him packing (however, with a nice severance package). i think He has some Jesus in him, it just gets mixed up with other stuff. The youngest generation may be leaving the church in record numbers but at least they have a fighting chance of finding the real God later. But it would be encouraging if they did. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name., I dont think God has sent any dreams or visions to anyone vouching for Mark Driscoll? But one morning as I sat at my desk in y basement office, I looked up at my little bulletin board. Robert Morris loves putting his flock under the law regarding Mosaic Law tithing and also under Deuteronomy so he can squeeze out extravagant gifts. None of them see anything wrong with this. One needed them because they were somehow spiritually qualified (?) The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done.

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